Liberty Bell 5k or 3 mile?
09/12/2010 9:11:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10
Hey Coach, Last year the Liberty Bell results were listed under a 3 mile time, while the year before they listed them as a 5k. I was wondering which it actully is, 5k or 3mile? Also if it is under the 3 mile time why did you change it from a 5k? Thanks for all the effort you do to keep this site so well run.
Hey Coach,
Last year the Liberty Bell results were listed under a 3 mile time, while the year before they listed them as a 5k. I was wondering which it actully is, 5k or 3mile? Also if it is under the 3 mile time why did you change it from a 5k?
Thanks for all the effort you do to keep this site so well run.
09/12/2010 9:39:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3131
I figured this question would come up at some point. I dread Liberty Bell coming around because of this very issue :-). It's a great meet, but I get caught in a great vortex of conflicting opinion. It doesn't help that I have a strong opinion. With the new course rating feature on MileSplit (still in development), a part of my reason for treating Liberty Bell as a 3-mile would be diminished. But, to use the feature properly, I'd need to go back and redo last year's results as 5K results. That would be a little tedious, but doable. Also, it would do no good right now as the course ratings are accessible. And, ultimately, the problem of Liberty Bell skewing the team and individual rankings still exists--with or without course ratings. I have to concede, however, that there are other courses that produce a similar skewing of the rankings to what Liberty Bell does. You just don't notice it as much with times from the other courses because no other really "fast" course runs the number of people each year that Liberty Bell does. Something I need to decide, and soon, but I'm still torn. In the near term, it will probably stay at three miles until the course rating feature becomes an available user feature.
I figured this question would come up at some point. I dread Liberty Bell coming around because of this very issue . It's a great meet, but I get caught in a great vortex of conflicting opinion. It doesn't help that I have a strong opinion.

With the new course rating feature on MileSplit (still in development), a part of my reason for treating Liberty Bell as a 3-mile would be diminished. But, to use the feature properly, I'd need to go back and redo last year's results as 5K results. That would be a little tedious, but doable. Also, it would do no good right now as the course ratings are accessible.

And, ultimately, the problem of Liberty Bell skewing the team and individual rankings still exists--with or without course ratings. I have to concede, however, that there are other courses that produce a similar skewing of the rankings to what Liberty Bell does. You just don't notice it as much with times from the other courses because no other really "fast" course runs the number of people each year that Liberty Bell does.

Something I need to decide, and soon, but I'm still torn. In the near term, it will probably stay at three miles until the course rating feature becomes an available user feature.
09/14/2010 3:17:53 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
1st, thanks for working this site. Without your commitment to Colorado Milesplit, we would not even be having a discussion about Liberty Bell and for that matter Cross Country. But here are a couple of thoughts to think about. Liberty Bell states it is a 5k course. So, list it in the 5k results. Until the officials at Liberty Bell say it is something different, then report it as a 5K race. I realize that you run this site and realize you may have other motives for not listing Liberty Bell in the 5k rankings, but I think the objective is just to report the facts as you get them and not to put a "slant" on them. I think the people that come to this site can make up their own minds and work the data if needed. There are lots of XC 5K courses in Colorado with different conditions and some run slow and some fast. Some are long and some are short. It all evens out. Some 5K courses have…. - Altitude - some don't (there is a big difference between 8000 ft and 3500 ft). - Big hills - some very flat - Water jumps - most in CO don’t - High grass - some with nicely groomed grass - a Mix of road, side walk, rock path - some with rutted harden mud paths - Windy buffs - some with wooded trails - Hot dry days - some days are cold and snowy Some courses will run differently from day to day depending on conditions. (The new State course will be a lot faster at the end of October without heat, dust, and few 100 less racers). I once saw the Midwest Footlocker course in Kenosha, WI go from frozen mud and ice covered puddles to all mud in about 2hrs. The fellows in the 1st race had a hard track and next waves got muck. Lace them up and run, that’s all you can do. My point, you can't put an asterisk beside every course or every race. There is no need for course ratings or time adjustments. It is all guess work. Who needs another BCS formula? The fast will run fast on any course. So please, just report the times. The Liberty Bell meet is one of the best High School XC meets in the State. It’s been held for over 30 years. I say, lets promote this "Fast" Grand Daddy and not bury it on the back pages. Here is a link to the past winners: http://heritage.littletonpublicschools.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FXeg3CeI8qM%3d&tabid=3336 Hey, notice Katie Vanatta's Dad Mike, 1979. Another Note, bring your best game. Liberty Bell annually attracts many College recruiters. The Big races usually do. A couple of years ago I spoke with no less than 7 College coaches watching K. Williams, E. Apple, B. Johnson, NM, J. Manilafasha and others.
1st, thanks for working this site. Without your commitment to Colorado Milesplit, we would not even be having a discussion about Liberty Bell and for that matter Cross Country.
But here are a couple of thoughts to think about.

Liberty Bell states it is a 5k course. So, list it in the 5k results. Until the officials at Liberty Bell say it is something different, then report it as a 5K race.

I realize that you run this site and realize you may have other motives for not listing Liberty Bell in the 5k rankings, but I think the objective is just to report the facts as you get them and not to put a "slant" on them. I think the people that come to this site can make up their own minds and work the data if needed.

There are lots of XC 5K courses in Colorado with different conditions and some run slow and some fast. Some are long and some are short. It all evens out.

Some 5K courses have….
* Altitude - some don't (there is a big difference between 8000 ft and 3500 ft).

* Big hills - some very flat

* Water jumps - most in CO don't

* High grass - some with nicely groomed grass

* a Mix of road, side walk, rock path - some with rutted harden mud paths

* Windy buffs - some with wooded trails

* Hot dry days - some days are cold and snowy


Some courses will run differently from day to day depending on conditions. (The new State course will be a lot faster at the end of October without heat, dust, and few 100 less racers). I once saw the Midwest Footlocker course in Kenosha, WI go from frozen mud and ice covered puddles to all mud in about 2hrs. The fellows in the 1st race had a hard track and next waves got muck. Lace them up and run, that's all you can do.

My point, you can't put an asterisk beside every course or every race. There is no need for course ratings or time adjustments. It is all guess work. Who needs another BCS formula? The fast will run fast on any course. So please, just report the times.

The Liberty Bell meet is one of the best High School XC meets in the State. It's been held for over 30 years. I say, lets promote this "Fast" Grand Daddy and not bury it on the back pages.

Here is a link to the past winners:
http://heritage.littletonpublicschools.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FXeg3CeI8qM%3d&tabid=3336
Hey, notice Katie Vanatta's Dad Mike, 1979.

Another Note, bring your best game. Liberty Bell annually attracts many College recruiters. The Big races usually do. A couple of years ago I spoke with no less than 7 College coaches watching K. Williams, E. Apple, B. Johnson, NM, J. Manilafasha and others.
09/14/2010 1:28:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 23
How many meters long is the Liberty Bell course? I don't coach high school XC, but I have heard everything from 4506 meters long to 5050 meters long. Has there ever been an official universally agreed-upon measurement? The discussion should be short. If the course is 5000 meters long, then it should be classified as a 5k, regardless of other variables. If it is not 5000 meters long, as measured by the centerline throughout the course, then it is not a 5k and should not be ranked as such. Can't starting and finishing lines be adjusted to make up any differences? I know I am naive, but shouldn't this be a simple problem to solve??? SEP
How many meters long is the Liberty Bell course? I don't coach high school XC, but I have heard everything from 4506 meters long to 5050 meters long. Has there ever been an official universally agreed-upon measurement?

The discussion should be short. If the course is 5000 meters long, then it should be classified as a 5k, regardless of other variables. If it is not 5000 meters long, as measured by the centerline throughout the course, then it is not a 5k and should not be ranked as such. Can't starting and finishing lines be adjusted to make up any differences?

I know I am naive, but shouldn't this be a simple problem to solve???

SEP
09/14/2010 8:24:21 PM
Coach
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Liberty Bell should be ranked as a 3 mile course becasue as a 5k course it just creates outliers and skews the data. You can't compare Liberty Bell with any other course becasue it is so much faster and cant even be considered on the same level. Liberty bell has an overall downhill elevation which makes times much faster then they should be also liberty bell is all concrete and gravel and should be considered a road race not even close to a cross country course. Putting it as a 5k just messes with the ranking for the entire year and give the kids who run it a "fake pr" that most never match all season.
Liberty Bell should be ranked as a 3 mile course becasue as a 5k course it just creates outliers and skews the data. You can't compare Liberty Bell with any other course becasue it is so much faster and cant even be considered on the same level. Liberty bell has an overall downhill elevation which makes times much faster then they should be also liberty bell is all concrete and gravel and should be considered a road race not even close to a cross country course. Putting it as a 5k just messes with the ranking for the entire year and give the kids who run it a "fake pr" that most never match all season.
09/14/2010 9:42:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 31
First off, I absolutely love the Liberty Bell venue. It has such a rich history and is regarded as one of the "meets to watch" outside of our little corner of the universe. As a coach, I appreciate that it is not listed as a 5k for ranking purposes. When we attempt to compare apples to apples to help strategize our next race or get an idea of how we stand in the League/Region/State, it is too difficult to navigate the rankings with these results included. Recruiters from out of state have repeatedly asked, "what is your PR--outside of Liberty Bell". Most folks agree that the net downhill + rumor (almost urban legend) that the course is short probably has some basis in fact. As a team. we use the Liberty Bell to try and forecast where we should be by season's end, with a team challenge to break our Liberty Bell "PR". Too many athletes, on too many teams, just do not attain those same results again at the close of the season for something to not be significantly "different" about the course. From a parental standpoint, I too appreciated being able to have a conversation with my child putting his results from last year into context, reframing the "orange" that is Liberty Bell. (BTW, by season's end he was only 3 seconds off this magic PR). So yes, the beauty of cross country racing is that maybe there are no 2 courses that are equal--thinking apples, one might be a Granny Smith & one might be a Macintosh. This one just seems like too far an outlier to be placed even in a bushel of apples. It's definitely an orange. Just my thoughts... Karen BCHS PS, it would be GREAT if someone did actually measure it, but perhaps tht would taint the magic?
First off, I absolutely love the Liberty Bell venue. It has such a rich history and is regarded as one of the "meets to watch" outside of our little corner of the universe.

As a coach, I appreciate that it is not listed as a 5k for ranking purposes. When we attempt to compare apples to apples to help strategize our next race or get an idea of how we stand in the League/Region/State, it is too difficult to navigate the rankings with these results included. Recruiters from out of state have repeatedly asked, "what is your PR--outside of Liberty Bell". Most folks agree that the net downhill + rumor (almost urban legend) that the course is short probably has some basis in fact.

As a team. we use the Liberty Bell to try and forecast where we should be by season's end, with a team challenge to break our Liberty Bell "PR". Too many athletes, on too many teams, just do not attain those same results again at the close of the season for something to not be significantly "different" about the course.

From a parental standpoint, I too appreciated being able to have a conversation with my child putting his results from last year into context, reframing the "orange" that is Liberty Bell. (BTW, by season's end he was only 3 seconds off this magic PR).

So yes, the beauty of cross country racing is that maybe there are no 2 courses that are equal--thinking apples, one might be a Granny Smith & one might be a Macintosh. This one just seems like too far an outlier to be placed even in a bushel of apples. It's definitely an orange.

Just my thoughts...

Karen
BCHS

PS, it would be GREAT if someone did actually measure it, but perhaps tht would taint the magic?
09/15/2010 9:12:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 30
First off, thanks so much to Coach Lineman for creating the LB. Obviously a huge success with all the teams that show up. And to Coach Sherry for doing a fantastic job of running the meet ...all the divisions, genders, plus JV and Open races....wow, a logistical nightmare. I measured LB with a wheel on two occasions and had it at 4920 and 4925 from the centerline. An astute runner could legally cut about 25-50 yards off that by taking perfect tangents. There are other places where no cones exist either and more could be trimed, like coming off the path and onto the street around the 2.25 mark. I wheeled it my 2nd year of coaching because our splits my first year made no sense for the last mile. I alwsys had mile and two mile splits taken for all races to provide feedback to the runners later. I coached "even-pacing" as the most economical way to run distance and wanted to review each race with the kids in that regard. So, after year one's race, I guess that would have been 2006 or so, I had the last mile significantly less for all runners even considering the negative elevation and concrete surface. When one considers the hard surface and perfect rebound, negative elevation and the short course, then placing it as a 3 mile is definately the way to go. None of this really matters however. You line up and run the event like any other. It's a big meet and huge atmosphere to get kids excited about Cross Country. Having it early in the season works great too as the road race component to it is minimized as time rolls toward state. My advice is: go have fun and look at your results versus the competition that day, but don't get caught up comparing the times to anything else. Everyone should be excited about the sport after the meet with all the vibe that occurs there. Unfortunately I can't make it there this year, but wish I could. And, take the time to thank the organizers and workers for their efforts, they do a great job.
First off, thanks so much to Coach Lineman for creating the LB. Obviously a huge success with all the teams that show up. And to Coach Sherry for doing a fantastic job of running the meet ...all the divisions, genders, plus JV and Open races....wow, a logistical nightmare.

I measured LB with a wheel on two occasions and had it at 4920 and 4925 from the centerline. An astute runner could legally cut about 25-50 yards off that by taking perfect tangents. There are other places where no cones exist either and more could be trimed, like coming off the path and onto the street around the 2.25 mark.

I wheeled it my 2nd year of coaching because our splits my first year made no sense for the last mile. I alwsys had mile and two mile splits taken for all races to provide feedback to the runners later. I coached "even-pacing" as the most economical way to run distance and wanted to review each race with the kids in that regard.

So, after year one's race, I guess that would have been 2006 or so, I had the last mile significantly less for all runners even considering the negative elevation and concrete surface.

When one considers the hard surface and perfect rebound, negative elevation and the short course, then placing it as a 3 mile is definately the way to go.

None of this really matters however. You line up and run the event like any other. It's a big meet and huge atmosphere to get kids excited about Cross Country. Having it early in the season works great too as the road race component to it is minimized as time rolls toward state.

My advice is: go have fun and look at your results versus the competition that day, but don't get caught up comparing the times to anything else. Everyone should be excited about the sport after the meet with all the vibe that occurs there. Unfortunately I can't make it there this year, but wish I could. And, take the time to thank the organizers and workers for their efforts, they do a great job.
09/17/2010 11:13:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 68
Not that my team is anywhere near the elite (though as students and citizens they are), but I would just like to add that last year of my top 14 boys, only 2 (Jordan Spratt - 16:14, and Jordan Reid 17:06) had their Pr's at Liberty bell. The other 12 earned their Pr's at either Pat Amato, Coronado, or State. In regards to Spratt he became very ill soon after liberty bell (didnt the whole state?) and would have had to miss state if it was not postponed so he didnt come close to liberty bell time, Reid was pretty close. I only bring this up, because a lot of teams have their eyes on regionals, and are not ready for Liberty bell, and do get faster over the season. So in many cases Liberty Bell times are not very far off of what they run anyway, so having it listed as a 5k is no big deal. Likewise I think that most of the coaches that use the meet scoring function look at more than just a kiddos pr. Finally I do want to say to all you that know me, that this year (2010) has been a seriously bad year on the personal level, so I have been mostly hidding away, so as not to impose my grumpiness on others. So if I have rubbed any of you the wrong way this year, I appologize, I am not trying to be a jerk. I must say that my kiddos have done a great job of putting up with me, it is a testement of how great they are. Wish all the best today, and good luck.
Not that my team is anywhere near the elite (though as students and citizens they are), but I would just like to add that last year of my top 14 boys, only 2 (Jordan Spratt - 16:14, and Jordan Reid 17:06) had their Pr's at Liberty bell. The other 12 earned their Pr's at either Pat Amato, Coronado, or State. In regards to Spratt he became very ill soon after liberty bell (didnt the whole state?) and would have had to miss state if it was not postponed so he didnt come close to liberty bell time, Reid was pretty close.

I only bring this up, because a lot of teams have their eyes on regionals, and are not ready for Liberty bell, and do get faster over the season. So in many cases Liberty Bell times are not very far off of what they run anyway, so having it listed as a 5k is no big deal. Likewise I think that most of the coaches that use the meet scoring function look at more than just a kiddos pr.

Finally I do want to say to all you that know me, that this year (2010) has been a seriously bad year on the personal level, so I have been mostly hidding away, so as not to impose my grumpiness on others. So if I have rubbed any of you the wrong way this year, I appologize, I am not trying to be a jerk. I must say that my kiddos have done a great job of putting up with me, it is a testement of how great they are.

Wish all the best today, and good luck.
09/18/2010 12:56:17 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
@Coach_Nicolls For what it's worth, one of our runners wearing a GPS distance watch today marked the course in 3.12 miles. At least for him, it was a complete 5K.
@Coach_Nicolls

For what it's worth, one of our runners wearing a GPS distance watch today marked the course in 3.12 miles. At least for him, it was a complete 5K.
09/18/2010 1:17:32 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5
This year I don't think it would be a bad idea to place it as a 5k. It was definitely hotter than last year and the times showed it too. The times were not as fast as they usually were and I don't think it would skew the rankings too much because most times are times that the runners are capable of running on a fast course late in the season.
This year I don't think it would be a bad idea to place it as a 5k. It was definitely hotter than last year and the times showed it too. The times were not as fast as they usually were and I don't think it would skew the rankings too much because most times are times that the runners are capable of running on a fast course late in the season.
09/18/2010 12:50:57 PM
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I'm actually pondering putting the results into 5K--and exactly for the reason suggested above. At this point, almost every result in the state this season has been impacted by heat. It was hot at pre-state, it was hot at St. Vrain, etc, etc, etc. Some races have been hotter than others, but "hot" has been the word so far. In that sense, Liberty Bell still behaves like a 3-mile race, not a 5K, relative to the other races. I'd like to think, however, there's some hope for relief from the heat before regionals and state roll around. If that happens, I think I'm willing to treat Liberty Bell results as 5K results this year. So, if we start getting some more reasonable race temperatures, I'll go back through and repost Liberty Bell results as 5K results. For now, I've posted them as 3 mile.
I'm actually pondering putting the results into 5K--and exactly for the reason suggested above.

At this point, almost every result in the state this season has been impacted by heat. It was hot at pre-state, it was hot at St. Vrain, etc, etc, etc. Some races have been hotter than others, but "hot" has been the word so far. In that sense, Liberty Bell still behaves like a 3-mile race, not a 5K, relative to the other races. I'd like to think, however, there's some hope for relief from the heat before regionals and state roll around. If that happens, I think I'm willing to treat Liberty Bell results as 5K results this year.

So, if we start getting some more reasonable race temperatures, I'll go back through and repost Liberty Bell results as 5K results. For now, I've posted them as 3 mile.
09/18/2010 10:48:45 PM
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For those of us who don't attend Liberty Bell, the team ranking are very skewed. Yes competition is good there, but we like a more traditional cross country course with trails and grass and less road racing. If Liberty Bell is in included in rankings, then the ranking feature of this site is pretty worthless. Liberty Bell results are very much an outlier. I know many of us "Stats" teachers would agree to toss out the outlier. I found a runner who ran 18:00 at Lori F and 16:34 at LB. I hope we can keep those results out of the rankings.
For those of us who don't attend Liberty Bell, the team ranking are very skewed. Yes competition is good there, but we like a more traditional cross country course with trails and grass and less road racing. If Liberty Bell is in included in rankings, then the ranking feature of this site is pretty worthless. Liberty Bell results are very much an outlier. I know many of us "Stats" teachers would agree to toss out the outlier. I found a runner who ran 18:00 at Lori F and 16:34 at LB. I hope we can keep those results out of the rankings.
09/19/2010 11:09:21 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10
At my school, we believe it should be entered as a 5k. I know that at my last years regional course, this years conference course, most people ran faster times or similar times as at Liberty Bell this year. If it is truely a 5k, PUT IT IN AS A 5K!! If it isnt a 3mile course then it isnt 3 miles so add it as a 5k. Their are plenty oother "fast coursess" and opprotunities for teams to run fast times. This is just another one of those.
At my school, we believe it should be entered as a 5k. I know that at my last years regional course, this years conference course, most people ran faster times or similar times as at Liberty Bell this year. If it is truely a 5k, PUT IT IN AS A 5K!! If it isnt a 3mile course then it isnt 3 miles so add it as a 5k. Their are plenty oother "fast coursess" and opprotunities for teams to run fast times. This is just another one of those.
09/19/2010 12:11:08 PM
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Liberty Bell is a wicked fast course, no question about that. However, it should still be listed as a 5k because that's what it measures. I live literally one block from Heritage and run the course frequently. It's a 5k. In response to an earlier post, there are dozens of courses in the state where there are places one can "cut time" by "cutting corners" on the course. Any legitimate Invitational should have people on the course that prevent that from happening. While Liberty Bell produces fast times, I had 10 runners run faster times at the Centaurus Invitational (crazy fast course as well) on 9/11/2010 than at the Liberty Bell the following week. In addition, the vast majority of my runners did not have their PR at Liberty Bell last year either.
Liberty Bell is a wicked fast course, no question about that. However, it should still be listed as a 5k because that's what it measures. I live literally one block from Heritage and run the course frequently. It's a 5k. In response to an earlier post, there are dozens of courses in the state where there are places one can "cut time" by "cutting corners" on the course. Any legitimate Invitational should have people on the course that prevent that from happening. While Liberty Bell produces fast times, I had 10 runners run faster times at the Centaurus Invitational (crazy fast course as well) on 9/11/2010 than at the Liberty Bell the following week. In addition, the vast majority of my runners did not have their PR at Liberty Bell last year either.
09/19/2010 2:24:50 PM
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@RunningEagle One potential resolution here--though I have my doubts about how well-received this would be--would be to list Liberty Bell in the database as a 5K [i]road race[/i] rather than as a [i]cross country race[/i]. It would not show in the cross country rankings, but the 5K times would show as PRs on personal pages. Although I have no informed opinion of my own regarding the actual Liberty Bell course distance, I don't have any doubt it's measured at least as accurately as most road race distances I've been a part of. How well do I remember running that extra quarter mile of the 1980 Bolder Boulder!
@RunningEagle

One potential resolution here--though I have my doubts about how well-received this would be--would be to list Liberty Bell in the database as a 5K road race rather than as a cross country race. It would not show in the cross country rankings, but the 5K times would show as PRs on personal pages.

Although I have no informed opinion of my own regarding the actual Liberty Bell course distance, I don't have any doubt it's measured at least as accurately as most road race distances I've been a part of. How well do I remember running that extra quarter mile of the 1980 Bolder Boulder!
09/19/2010 8:47:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
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I think that there should've been some sort of consistency in how the results of Liberty Bell results were posted, making it a 5K this year and posting it as a 3 mile last year doesn't make sense. Everyone knows that it's a fast course whether it's short or not doesn't really matter. They say that it's a 5K and it should be treated as one. There is a reason that people run it, they want to run a fast time and compete against the state's best. Times don't matter a lot in XC, just because there is no true comparison between courses. IT IS MEANT TO BE A FAST COURSE!!!! So let it be fast, and until someone can prove that it's short then it should be treated as a 5K (or a 3 mile as long as it's consistent). it's an amazing race and it brings together most of the top contenders for the state titles in every division. if nothing else it's a good barometer to how you will stack up against the best.
I think that there should've been some sort of consistency in how the results of Liberty Bell results were posted, making it a 5K this year and posting it as a 3 mile last year doesn't make sense. Everyone knows that it's a fast course whether it's short or not doesn't really matter. They say that it's a 5K and it should be treated as one. There is a reason that people run it, they want to run a fast time and compete against the state's best. Times don't matter a lot in XC, just because there is no true comparison between courses. IT IS MEANT TO BE A FAST COURSE!!!! So let it be fast, and until someone can prove that it's short then it should be treated as a 5K (or a 3 mile as long as it's consistent).

it's an amazing race and it brings together most of the top contenders for the state titles in every division. if nothing else it's a good barometer to how you will stack up against the best.
09/24/2010 7:09:22 AM
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I have added Liberty Bell results to the performance database as 5K road race results. They will not show in cross country rankings as 5Ks, but they will show on athlete pages as 5Ks. At least I think that's what I've done :-]. I may have to see how all the pages update before being too confident about this. The times will also show as 3-Mile XC times. This is not a near-term project because I don't have the sort of time available to do it right now, but I will try to go back through old Liberty Bell results on this site and do the same with them. I agree that consistency is a virtue at this point.
I have added Liberty Bell results to the performance database as 5K road race results. They will not show in cross country rankings as 5Ks, but they will show on athlete pages as 5Ks. At least I think that's what I've done . I may have to see how all the pages update before being too confident about this. The times will also show as 3-Mile XC times.

This is not a near-term project because I don't have the sort of time available to do it right now, but I will try to go back through old Liberty Bell results on this site and do the same with them. I agree that consistency is a virtue at this point.
09/26/2010 2:13:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 102
Coach V - did something go wrong or did you intend this? All the Liberty Bell times are showing up in the 5K cross country rankings.
Coach V - did something go wrong or did you intend this? All the Liberty Bell times are showing up in the 5K cross country rankings.
09/26/2010 3:06:39 PM
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Sigh. Okay, I just learned a little more about how the performance database works. I'll have to list Liberty Bell twice. Once as a road race (5K), once as a cross country meet (3 miles). The rankings will be messed up until at least tomorrow morning. In the meantime, I'd like to ask that those who feel that I should enter Liberty Bell as 5K cross country results please take a quick look at the rankings as they are today. Please tell me if you can look at those and then sincerely say that Liberty Bell results provide an accurate accounting of how things should work for rankings.
Sigh. Okay, I just learned a little more about how the performance database works.

I'll have to list Liberty Bell twice. Once as a road race (5K), once as a cross country meet (3 miles). The rankings will be messed up until at least tomorrow morning.

In the meantime, I'd like to ask that those who feel that I should enter Liberty Bell as 5K cross country results please take a quick look at the rankings as they are today. Please tell me if you can look at those and then sincerely say that Liberty Bell results provide an accurate accounting of how things should work for rankings.
10/18/2010 8:21:25 PM
Coach
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 176
I really don't understand this entire discussion. Liberty is a 5k race. Why is there any need for a discussion? Do you question the distance of every course listed as 5k? Sure, it is fast. So what? EVERY course is different. Comparing times is meaningless unless they are compared on the same course anyway. And...while we are on the subject of times... Why is there such an obsession here in CO on times? Cross-country is about my team beating your team. Time has nothing to do with it. If I score less points...I win whether I run fast or slow. We miss out on running some wonderful courses in regionals and state because we want to "run fast." To me this makes no sense.
I really don't understand this entire discussion. Liberty is a 5k race. Why is there any need for a discussion? Do you question the distance of every course listed as 5k? Sure, it is fast. So what? EVERY course is different. Comparing times is meaningless unless they are compared on the same course anyway.
And...while we are on the subject of times...
Why is there such an obsession here in CO on times? Cross-country is about my team beating your team. Time has nothing to do with it. If I score less points...I win whether I run fast or slow. We miss out on running some wonderful courses in regionals and state because we want to "run fast." To me this makes no sense.

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